Caro Gélineault est la première invitée au podcast « F-O qu'on s'parle ». Dans cet épisode on parle d'insécurité linguistique, de bilinguisme et d'accents !
Caro Gélineault détient un baccalauréat en linguistique de l'Université d'Ottawa et est une femme engagée dans la communauté franco-ontarienne ! Originaire de Geralton, dans le Nord-Ouest de l'Ontario, elle habite maintenant à Ottawa depuis plus de 10 ans, une modèle accessible pour la communauté franco-ontarienne et franco-ottavienne !
Dans cet épisode on parle d'insécurité linguistique, de bilinguisme et d'accents ! On aborde aussi des sujets comme l'évolution de la langue française depuis le temps de nos grand-parents, à aujourd'hui.
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Hello everyone, my name is Danielle Roy, I'm a co-host of the podcast today.
Me, it's Camille Sigouin I am the other co-host of the podcast. Welcome everyone. And thank you for being with us today. Welcome to the podcast, the first official podcast from l’Assemblée de la francophonie de l’Ontario, “F-O qu’on s’parle”.
So in this podcast the goal is to have conversations with influencers, accessible models to the community who have done phenomenal things in the Franco-Ontarian community.
They will tell us about their experiences, their opinions, their education and the lessons they learned. The first season of this podcast, we do say the first season of the podcast, is funded by ACFO Ottawa's Ottawa bilingue program. This program was designed to fund initiatives that emphasize bilingualism in Ottawa. It's our way of promoting all of that with this podcast.
In this first episode of the podcast. We spoke with Caro, Caro Gélineault, Caro studied linguistic studies at the University of Ottawa. I don't know how to say that, in linguistics at the University of Ottawa.
She has a super interesting background on everything related to linguistic insecurity, bilingualism in the province and promoting the language. We had a really good conversation about the different language registers, the accents, linguistic insecurity in general, also the evolution of the language, it was really an interesting, inspiring conversation. We are really happy to have had this first chat with Caro, good podcast everyone !
Hello Caro, how are you?
It's going well, thank you, thank you for welcoming me.
Caro welcome to the first episode of the AFO podcast. Caro, we have to talk about linguistic insecurity.
OK, Caro, can you tell us a bit about yourself? What is your expertise and what do you do for a living? Where are you from?
This is a big question. I am Franco-Ontarian from Northwestern Ontario, born in the small village of Geraldton. And since then, since my early childhood, I have been quite involved in all kinds of causes Franco-Ontarienne and Franco-Canadian I have had a great career in the Youth network with the FESFO, the FJCF and all that. I worked for a long time in the field, then by the way now I do social intervention so I work with vulnerable people who need support. I am really proud to be able to be one of the few people who can offer them services in French. The whole cause of the Francophonie in a minority situation is really close to my heart. Then also I studied linguistics. It really allowed me to learn a lot about how languages work, how languages evolve, and then to learn a little too what are the myths and truths in relation to all these linguistic questions that we all have, it allowed me to really learn more about linguistic insecurity, which is something that we obviously live in a minority environment, it really motivated me to campaign for more discussion. So I'm really happy that this project is happening. There are more and more projects like this that are developing where we talk about these themes which I would say 5 or 8 years ago, we talked very little about. So well done. I can't wait to talk to you guys about it.
I think it's cool because we all come from the north again and we all have an accent from 3 different regions of the north, and all 3 of our accents are different. Like me, I have comments, all the time "it's not good french, it's not elaborate enough." I can't wait to learn more, because I think we’ve never had the conversation when we see each other, we are all the same in a circle you know but I don't think we really had the conversation between us three, about what are our insecurities? What does that mean, why does it exist? I appreciate your being here Caro.
Cool
You are my favorite
So tell us about linguistic insecurity, what is linguistic insecurity Caro ?
Wow, nice open questions. Linguistic insecurity from a really linguistic point of view, as I think at its base, before talking about linguistic insecurity, we have to talk a little about what linguistics is because it is a field of study that is often also very unknown. I myself didn't know that it existed. Before arriving at university, I was enrolled in another program. Then I discovered it like that linguistics basically is the scientific study of language so we will try to have an analysis which is objective on language, on the structure of language. How languages evolve, how people learn languages, how people use language. Then we will focus mainly on the spoken language. We will make an important distinction between written language and spoken language, which is nevertheless important.
Linguistics allows us to bring out the value judgments or the subjectivity that we often have when we talk about language. Because, precisely, the language is very close to the heart because it is cultural.
So when we think of our language or when we see people who or we hear people who speak, we see people who write, for example on social media there are all kinds of value judgments that will emerge from this because that it is very close to us, it does not matter in which culture is in. Whether you are a minority or not, but in a minority language context, it's like even more sensitive right? Because we all have this desire to preserve the language, then to ensure that our children and the next generations will continue to express themselves in French, all that, we become very protective of this language, so it is a sensitive subject. What is interesting with linguistics is to try to remove that side of the analysis. It's not to say it's not important and all that. It is to see, can we have, a look that is more neutral, scientific, on the language, how it evolves in order to really understand better. What happens inside the linguistic systems that we use. Canada is an excellent place to do studies or analyze because, precisely, we have several languages that are in contact here, including our two official languages. So being in a bilingual country is an excellent language laboratory. I had a teacher who always said that, especially in the national capital,where we have a border between Ontario and Quebec. It's super interesting to see how bilingualism can operate, but from a structural point of view, the syntax, see how words are created, all that.
Phonetically, sounds, accents, linguistic insecurity, is what we define as this feeling. That speakers of a language have a certain opinion or a certain insecurity in relation to the way in which he or she is expressed. In comparison with the standard or standardized version of this language, there is always a "push and pull" between what is the standard language, So, what's in grammars What is in the dictionaries What will the Office québécois de la langue française au Canada tell us, or what will the Academy, Is it the Academy? the Académie de la langue française in France, we have like organizations that will tell us how we should express ourselves, then how we should use the language, this standard. It is an ideal that is impossible for anyone to achieve. There is no one, no one who speaks like a dictionary. There are some that are closer than others, then there are certain contexts where we will get closer to grammar, and the dictionary, then to other contexts where we will move away, but this standard is imaginary. So when a speaker of a language compares himself or herself, compares the way in which they will speak on a regular basis with their friends, their families, their colleagues, then they compare it to the standards that are conveyed by society, then he sees there is a gap between how I'm supposed to use the language, and how I use it in real life. Then this is where there can be insecurity because there is all this social and cultural baggage that comes with that. Language, is associated with the level of education, maybe people will tell themselves, maybe I'm not smart enough no matter what all those ideas are, this linguistic insecurity there, comes from the ideal, from the standard, from the language that we try to push, push, push at school or whatever, in the media. which makes people feel as if, in the end, « I may not be very good at expressing myself in French ». This is something that we see a lot in French Ontario. Because we are so close to the language of the majority. And there are so many different ways of expressing yourself, even within Ontario.
That's what you said Danielle, like the three of us, comes from more or less the same place, or the same region, but we don't speak the same way at all, we could compare ourselves to all the other regions, we could compare ourselves to Sudbury who have a super nice accent, we could compare to Windsor, who have another super nice accent, we can compare ourselves to Toronto, like, everyone has this different way of expressing themselves, we look at each other we compare ourselves often there is this feeling there of not being enough or not being good enough.
I find it interesting because the people to whom it is so important to speak good French. Yes, it is important, like I know that in some situations I speak one way and then in other situations like with you folks I speak in different ways than when I was speaking with a work partner or a funder. I'm going to change the way I speak 100%. It's really impressive. Sometimes I surprise myself because I say things and then I'm like ah" that was well said Danielle ". Then another day I'll say, "But what about they talked about? ". I heard it then I said to myself oh oh. How do you go from being able to adapt 100% to a more professional language to, " But what about they talked about? "
Everyone has been through this, it's like you're at school. You make an oral presentation, during your oral presentation you pay great attention, you are in sixth year, you're all nervous, you're in front of the board, everyone is looking at you, you have to try as much as possible to use the right words . But in this same context, in the classroom, once you return to your desk, and when you are chatting with your classmate next to you and you make a joke, you don't talk the same way, and all that is happening in the same room.
All these different variations in the way we're going to speak, which is the language register right? Inside, we are talking about the variation of language in the same individual, then, moreover, in linguistics. This is what we observe a lot, it is to see the variations of language, it is to have the language not being as a single thing which is static, which never changes, but as being something which is multiple, which is constantly evolving when I'm at home, or with my family, I might swear right? It is part of the language registers while if I am in the process of meeting a donor, then I hope to have funding to do a project. I will keep myself, as professional as possible. I will try to use big words and try to avoid anglicisms because we are told at school, that we must not use anglicisms, I consider myself a rebel of the language, I use the maximum of anglicisms that I can because I find it great, just to get everyone to react. Yes, yes, because you have to provoke, it's a question of confronting the status quo if you will right?
Then just as you said Danielle, we are several proud Franco-Ontarians, Franco-Ontarians who really want to ensure that the language continues after our generation. But unfortunately, we don't all have the same strategies for doing that. Then there are certain strategies, in my opinion, which are really much more harmful for the future of the language. This strategy of always wanting to correct people constantly, to tell them that they are not expressing themselves in the right way, in the end, I find that this is very harmful for the future of our community because it means that they end up not wanting to express themselves and then there are those who will say well, we can't just let people speak the way they want, they have to learn the right language. Absolutely absolutely. I agree with that. I understand that Grammar is important.
Camille, we worked together and it was always really clear when it came to Grammar.
But there is a difference for me between when I'm writing a press release or having an oral discussion with someone, it's about seeing if we can move away from this attitude of always criticizing people in relation to their language. It is a question of openness. It's a matter of being open to diversity. We talk a lot about the diversity of people, of cultural diversity. There are all kinds of diversity that we try to respect more and more in our society, but there is this linguistic diversity there too, which must be considered more and more in my opinion, because it has negative impacts. How many young people have we encountered in events or in activities, workshops that tell us that they don't feel comfortable expressing themselves in French because they are constantly being told that they are not good enough? Well, these young people are not going to pass on the language and the culture to their children. That's it. We have to change our attitude towards this, because in my opinion, it is really harmful, because you also talk about the evolution of the language. I think it's important to understand that you were raised by your parents obviously but you won't speak exactly like your parent’s generation. You will speak like your generation, so there will be an indirect expectation, I think that's where linguistic insecurity comes from, from internalized oppression, wanting to speak like your parents, like your teachers, to speak like other people, but the language evolves, so If you have this understanding it means your children will have this understanding because the language will evolve it won't be the same language for your children, I don't know, it's interesting.
I find it is a bit like human nature right? humans like stability. We have difficulty adhering to the changes. We are constantly bumping into each other, it changes, but we don't like it. Then we want to resist. But when finally, it would be necessary to do an internal exercise, to accept to let go on a certain level of acceptance. Let things evolve. Life is changing all the time. It is the same for languages. Our parents don't talk in the same way our grandparents did and that's okay. Then we certainly don't speak the same way people spoke 400 years ago.
I'm sorry, I just want to come in, because when you said that, it just clicked because considering the way my grandfather spoke and the way my father speaks, I could argue that the person who has a better French better accepted in society, is my father. My grandfather used to pull out expressions and shortcuts, it just came to me like that when you said that I just thought yeah grandpa came out of the expressions, to this day I don't think I heard them from anyone else.
It's like a generational gap too. Like the generation of our parents, it's a generation that is much much more educated than their parents. So it's interesting because the ideal is that more education, more education. It makes the quality of the language better. I am not 100% in agreement when it comes to spoken language. Of course, you have to learn to read and write, you have to go to school. We must continue to read and write to have these skills.
But when it comes, the basic skill of expressing oneself orally, of communicating with people, in fact, our parents, our grandparents, our great-grandparents. Didn't use standard language, there were some who didn't go to school very long
And the language has survived, we are here, there is historical evidence which shows that even if we do not speak like a dictionary.
Our language and our culture is a completely different thing. It can live. It can be very, very positive, enriching no matter if you tune your past participle or not or if you made your subjunctive your subjunctive right or not, but I feel like we forget that sometimes. What I like saying is that anglicisms are a trigger and it makes me laugh. But what you don't realize is when you read a little about historical linguistics. There is about 70% of all the english lexicon that we know today, which are borrowed from French, there have been moments in history of the evolution of English, where there were many, many contacts in Europe with French, the language of the court was French, all of these borrowed from French into English, then when we borrow one of these words again to bring them back to French, we are told, ”hey it is an anglicism” . Yes, but how far do you want to go? It's not logical, that’s why I encourage people to read about linguistics, to get informed. There are interesting videos on YouTube, because it allows us to see a little further than the end of our nose or this generation and to see that as if you are looking historically there are myths that we can undo with facts long live information and facts.
Yes.
Let's talk anglicismes I don't like to speak english I don't like how my english sounds. Then Danielle told me often, come on you speak good English stop worrying but I don't like it. but for some reason I put so many English words in my sentences, like sometimes, I'll say, a full sentence in English. But I never speak in English but it's not anglicism, literally said words in English like in my sentences. I don't know if it's proof of bilingualism, I don't know. But imagine people who get their words corrected. Like « its not a skii-doo it's a snowmobile, it's not a kleenex, it's a handkerchief. Is it necessary? Did you understand what the person said? Does that make this person a less competent person because they said three words in English in their sentence?
The example you give is super good Cam, precisely you are a special case you come from Hearst, for me and Danielle it is a little different, rare are the francos-ontarians who are less comfortable in English.
The vast majority of us are fluent in English. But precisely, as you say English is not the usual language for you, but you still borrow from the english language. That's a result of the environment in which you live right?
Perhaps some people around you are more bilingual, so we pick up, we absorb like sponges what is happening around us.
It makes us the speaker that we are. That's ok. But yes I have often been criticized because I use anglicisms. I looked at people. Ok but you understand that I am president of the Youth Federation, I am doing this, like I am super mega committed in my community, then you come to tell me that my French is not good enough. What are you trying to do here? You just want me to give up?
It has the opposite effect, it's frustrating.
It reminds me of my big sister, there are also people in whom the fact that people are more and more bilingual from birth there are more and more exogamous families where kids learn both languages from the start. I learned to speak English when I was 11-12 years old, it came later in my life with school, then with English speaking people at school with sports.
But it is not 100% a reality that you have a family 100% in French at home, 100% in French at school, 100% in French. It's just, realities have changed. I find that it's almost and it's not realistic to think that there are influences that will not come, even between francophones, 100% francophone, like you go to Sturgeon you go to Hearst, the expressions are different, like sometimes I heard expressions that I had never heard in my life then it's like, “OK, I think I understand, this is really phenomenal.” and that’s just talking about Ontario, there is Quebec, New Brunswick. There are Francophones everywhere in Canada and they all have different accents and they are all a super beautiful french, what is interesting is when you decide to look at something with a touch of “wow that’s so cool ! It's beautiful. What's your expression? Why do you say that ? Oh wow.” You can ask these questions without telling someone what you are saying is not correct.
It is to move away from elitism because it is elitism, it is to say "I am better than you compared to such and such a thing" I am just very militant for social justice and in my opinion, all this discussion is part of a discussion on class struggle, we often look at the people who are more affluent who have a better status, in our society as being better at expressing themselves as opposed to people who perhaps have less access to education, or who live in poverty when you are closer to the people, the community which is not as elites in that sense. It's about getting away from that elitism and to get closer to that opening, to say it's really cool how you say that, and that's ok ,communication is never perfect. I see people saying yeah but you know it's because when you use all of those expressions people won't understand you. OK, but that's, communication, communication is never 100% perfect. It's always a work in progress, it's a back and forth. I say something. Either you answer or you ask me to clarify what's the problem if I use an expression you don't know and then you say hey what does that mean to you? Then you can learn from that like for me, it is a learning which is much more enriching than to say. ”Les si n’aiment pas les rai” Ok. Then that goes into this question of multiculturalism, plurality of the communities, as we have more and more Franco-Ontarians, Franco-Ontarians who come from an immigrant background, that too is a completely different language. It’s awesome, that's excellent, bring it on. Why would we not want to include more ways of expression? For me, it is not negative that Camille that you say something I do not understand 100% then that I ask you to clarify that is the basics of communication. Even if I had perfect French you could not understand what I am saying because I may be using the wrong words. This is the basis of communication, this perfect French doesn't exist, nowhere, nowhere. It is an idea that we have in our head what is interesting with what is done in the sociolinguistics laboratory at the University of Ottawa, it is really interesting. Researchers at the University of Ottawa who do what is called sociolinguistics. Precisely, to bring this analysis gives language, then to contextualize in the social context here in Canada, to mix languages. There are analysis’s that have been made, to compare grammar manuals, and dictionaries. Then there are plenty of inconsistencies between these . Like even grammarians, can't agree on what is good, and what is not good.
So can we just chill out a little?
You know written french, it's a tool, it's a means of communication, it's professional.
That's what I mean, but like you said, I write an essay or I write an Instagram post, it is not the same. For the essay there is no problem . I have the same education as anyone in French Ontario I had the TPCL, I can speak in a way but it does not mean that my French writing is not good, it does not mean I can't communicate with good words, good research, good grammar, professionally.
One thing does not negate the other. You know the example that I like to give is, so my french in linguistics, we call it a vernacular French or a vernacular language which is, like the spoken language and the language of the people, the language of the community. I use my vernacular French every day, in a professional context, I'm lucky because I work with people, if I do an intervention with someone who is in crisis or who is going through difficult things at home, I wont say “So hello Mrs. Danielle.” No, i'll be like “hey how are you, how do you feel about this today?” so for me, it's a professional tool too. And it can be in all kinds of contexts. So radio hosts they are going to use a French that is more vernacular, except if you work at Radio-Canada, but it is a tool which one can benefit from in a professional context that is why, I use it as much as possible, like when I do interviews, use to stress about it, I would practice not to use too many anglicisms, but no if people want to interview me its because they want to speak to me, and I speak like that so that's that.
When I was vice of the FESFO I did an interview, and I made sure not to say english words, but the interviewer told me start again you said some anglicism,and I was like.” Oh no! I'll try to resolve this. I'm so sorry.” I mean like was that really necessary. There was no english words in there. But I tried to be accessible and normal. But I felt so dumb.
That’s so unfortunate
it’s like “Ok ok i'll start again so what was the english word I said?”
I read a book like in college, it talked about french in a minority context. A book that I really liked, it talked about the media in New Brunswick and how it is the only province in Canada that fully accepted their accent. They recognize themselves in shows but if you check someone who is studying radio in Ottawa they are told to have a clean accent. And then they go on an internship then they won't have a regional Hearst accent, the construction worker who listens to the radio all day won't recognize himself in the host, maybe in the content but not in the way he speaks. As opposed to people in New-Brunswick associate themselves with the accent and the way the host speaks and I think that is super interesting. I asked myself, why can’t we do that everywhere ? Why is it not the norm to associate ourselves with our accents ?
We are always comparing ourselves to something else. We have, like a big collective complex in Ontario, we will compare ourselves to what is happening in Quebec and Quebecers, will compare ourselves to what is happening in Europe, there is always the next best thing but I understand where it comes from. But we have to move away from that because by always comparing ourselves and not look at ourselves and our goals and who we are, we are gonna lose the youth that could be interested in our community that asks themselves « should I be like the quebecois, should I be this person, aww its too complicated, I'll just listen to what Beyonce said on the TV and it will be easier. » But it's true, american pop culture is so accessible, it's so much easier to understand and be interested in what is going on there because there is less elitism when it comes to language, I'm not saying there is none, there are a lot of examples, but culturally it is so much easier, even for me, someone, who grew in a small village in the northwest Ontario, to associate myself with what is going on in Texas in the media, as opposed to what is happening in Sudbury in the media, and that's too bad. We are losing people.
I participated in national events and it feels like because Ontario is so big, like there are so many different regional accents, there is no accent that could be the one franco- ontarian. In New Brunswick, it is Acadian, but each still has their own regional accent. It's crazy maybe we hear it less because the regions are a little closer together. But maybe if I came from another region, but we still have different accent.
But it's not only our region, it's our parents what did our parents live through, like my mom is from Montreal, she has been living in Ontario for 35 years but she was born and grew up in Montreal so obviously that has an impact on how I speak. We mostly get how we speak from our mother, so all those different settings in the person's identity will make who we are and what we do and how we express ourselves. It's about developing this interest for diversity instead of fear of diversity, something else we see in linguistics is the question of the sensitive period, so people evolve in the way they speak as kids we learn sounds and words, we start making phrases. And the way we speak will evolve on time and the sensitive period is between adolescence and adult age. So 16-71 to 24-5 is the period where the way someone's personal dialect will more or less solidify, after that age we speak more or less the same way untill the end of our days. All the three of us are more or less at the end of that sensitive period, so we will probably speak like this until we are 90. Our parents too, speak the same way they did in their 20’s. but then there is a clash because obviously between our 20’s and there's there has been a big evolution, and that when people compare each other instead of being curious we just judge
I could talk about it for hours
I told you we had prepared a list of questions but we did not ask any, we didn't ask them like I said we would, it was really a good discussion. Maybe I have one last question: What's your most memorable moment in everything that has to do with language insecurity since you started?
Can I name her ?
No
You all saw it, well there was someone, ok Denise, I’ll just say it, it's out there. Yeah that was interesting, I really did not expect that. I remember, I was invited to participate in this documentary, precisely because I'm Franco-Ontarian activist with a back-ground in linguistics. They said “we would like someone with your point of view on linguistics and I said no problem. It is in our habits as Franco-Ontarians to do volunteering, perfect lets do it . It had been frustrating. This documentary, released in 2019. It feels like a long time because of the whole other situation I won't name, but it was a really long discussion trying to promote openness to difference and fostering openness to diversity. Me and the two other people who participated with me in the documentary, we argued non stop, like the firmness of not wanting to have this openness. After like 50 times of having the way I speak corrected, I got tired of it and let the real me out, and then everyone left, and then it was released on “Tout le monde en parle”. That day i was studying and it came out on “Tout le monde en parle” a Sunday night, but since I had a big Monday I told myself I wont watch it, I'll do that later. Big mistake, as I was doing homework I received 3 text messages from 3 friends saying « Whoa what did Denise Bombardier say about you? » So I had to wait that night to watch it, it was frustrating but i'm lucky because my background made me really at ease with the way I speak so it did not affect me personally, and I saw it as a really good opportunity to talk about that subject then came the invitation for me to go on “Tout le monde en parle”. It was really cool to be able to talk about, but what really affected me the most is that it was a textbook example of what we live everyday. To have People with a certain social status, who are older than us, with more money than us with more reputation than us that come from elsewhere, where the french language is a majority coming to tell us what to do, at home even, we were in Ottawa, that was at home. She visited us just to attack us. So it was good to have that example but it also really scared me, because even if it didn't hurt me personally, this type of speech on the public space, coming from someone who is well recognized with much more status than me, that could encourage more people with the same opinions to act that way with others. That’s what I thought was such a shame. And I received all sorts of comments on social media, saying even when I was being myself on “Tout le monde en parle” I was not speaking correctly. It's crazy how the wheel turns and it keeps turning. It's only by making a project like this we can continue sending a message of openness and a willingness to better understand each other and be less scared of what is different.
Caro, I'm real real real proud of you.
I also received lots of super positive messages from Franco-Ontarians, from Franco-Canadian.
Well, I remember it when you went to “Tout le monde en parle”, I would talk about it on my Instagram, I was like "Ahh Caro is on Tout le monde en parle, go listen to it”!
Negative comments aside, you still had a platform for Ontario, and your militant instinct made it possible for you to stay true to yourself. I mean “Tout le monde en parle” is the most listened show in Quebec and at the national level also, many people outside of Quebec listen to it too, so you had a platform, like French Ontario and the linguistic minorities of Canada had a platform to talk about this issue which opened a discussion in my opinion, in Quebec it has to change. You are really inspiring, you are my accessible model and I often say it.
Well thank you ladies for the opportunity to chat, it always feels good to chat with you guys.
Alright, let’s go Camille
My little conclusion. Well thank you Caro for coming, as I said at the beginning, people can follow all the activities ACFO Ottawa offers on their platform, so the social media ACFO Ottawa. To our dear listeners, don't forget to follow AFO's social networks @monassembee, on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Linked-in and YouTube to learn more about the next “FO qu’on s’parle” episodes.
In the next episode, we will talk about youth leadership. So see you soon everyone thank you again Caro.
Bye!